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Trainers.... Who is using what and how?

@trad
Good to know you are on the road to recovery, but it really sounds like you went through quite an ordeal here. How did the Japanese health care system treat you?
 
Whistler is the MECCA of MTB

Spent the last day or two watching videos off variations of the search "MTB Whistler" - much more developed that what I'd imagined.

Also looks like your arms would get pretty thrashed from all that too.

Kept thinking how do these guys not "X Wing Fighter" into the trees (like way too frequently for comfort) - or does this happen a lot?

What kind of protection do you wear? Motorcross stuff? I've read recently of MTB guys wearing road style bibs and stuff? How does that work?

Those wooden berms, elevated pathways, tabletops (that what they're even called?) look like they'd get awfully slippery when they get mossy or when it's wet..
 
What some people can ride these days defies belief and borders on the insane. One of my favorite trail videos is this one, just have a look at the ground 9 seconds into the video or to the sides at 1:30. I know there are videos with jumps, drops and all that, but "just" riding along a ridge with all sorts of difficult features, holes, lots of off camber sections, where you know that if you make one mistake, you're dead, that takes my breath away.
 
What some people can ride these days defies belief and borders on the insane. One of my favorite trail videos is this one, just have a look at the ground 9 seconds into the video or to the sides at 1:30. I know there are videos with jumps, drops and all that, but "just" riding along a ridge with all sorts of difficult features, holes, lots of off camber sections, where you know that if you make one mistake, you're dead, that takes my breath away.

Thanks for sharing the link, risky stuff no question.

From other videos I think I see now the answer to my question about protection, and the answer is "We don't"

So am I right to conclude that the sport mainly involves descending? Is there really little to no climbing aspect? Like no MTB "climbing"? Maybe what I'm trying to say is if I decided to get a MTB I would probably try and use it to climb big hills i.e. mountains that road / gravel / whatever bikes can't quite do right. Is there a branch of MTB that does this?

Right now can't help but see iMTB as a young man's game - and I sadly have already rounded second base, looking at third lol
 
No, I think going by Youtube videos to have a flavor of mountain biking skews your perspective, that's not what all mountain biking is like. However, doing tours doesn't make for great video compared to spirited trail riding. Even I find watching the Tour de France absolutely mindbogglingly boring — despite loving the sport.

It sounds like your thing is doing long tours on cross country mountain bikes. I really, really love going uphill. (Perhaps that's because my technique sucks and I have a regular fear response, but that's another matter.) Back in Germany, this is what all my friends and I were into, apart from my brother, none of them were riding trails. If you are interested in getting into the sport, get a cross country hard tail of the 1500 €/$ category. You'll have about 100 mm of suspension, which is plenty for a lot of stuff, great brakes and the bike will be reasonably light. It'll climb almost anything. It will be faster on many off road downhill bits than a cross bike, but you'll go much slower on road. Uphill, it depends on the gradient and the terrain, you could be competitive with cross bikes, slower or leave the cross bike in the dust because a cross bike doesn't have the gearing or the traction.
 
@armmewitharmony - do in the "old days" there was two kinds of riding... Downhill and Cross Country. In my mind, that still kinda stands... DH has expanded to "Park" and XC has been split into categories.

XC Categories:
XC - this is the most roadie of disciplines. No real climbs, no real descents. Kind of the hair scramble in motorbikes. This is a fun discipline and cross training on road bikes makes complete sense.

Trail - this is a bit gnarlier version of XC. More handling is req'd and spinning is kind of non-existent, road bike training is good, but not really req'd
.
Enduro - this is a bit of climbing and a bit of downhill. It requires both the technical downhill skills as well as the ability to do long shitty shitty climbs on technical terrain. Enduro is the closest to DH without using a lift. Road bikes help again... heart rates will skyrocket at times and your legs burn.

Then there are the bastard disciplines....
Freeride - this is your redbull shit. Style and risk over everything. Those guys are nuts and have skills, but they are unique and worthless in any other setting.
Dirt jump - um... jump in dirt. Again, the guys that excel in this are incredible, but really - it is what it is.
 
Thanks for taking the time to advise.

At this point, from what I've seen I think I'd like to try riding up those whistler trails the video guys go bombing down.

Would that not be fun?? I figure it would be fun.

Has nobody ever thought to do that or is it just lame?
 
@bloaker
I take issue with your characterization of XC: to me XC is all about long and sustained climbing, it is just that the main difficulty is the total change in elevation and the gradient rather than the terrain. The more you go towards trail riding, the more the focus lies on the terrain, the more you encounter shorter, punchier climbs that you can muscle over. The descents tend to be easy as well — as long as you have some suspension.

When it comes to XC races, though, handling skills have become more important over the years and just by course design, you have shorter climbs rather than the long climbs you find on tours.
 
When I got into the sport - it was only XC and Downhill. Basically you pedalled everywhere or you took a lift to the top of a mountain. That was it, easy peasy.
Since MTBs have become popular and profitable - lines have been drawn in the sand. I have been racing XC since 1995. and I have seen plenty of courses. I am pretty comfortable with my explanation of XC. It is the only discipline that Road Kits are used too! :D

There are "endurance XC races" that might incorporate long sustained climbs and my some local races do as well. However XC racing is everywhere in the US. Elevation changes are NOT everywhere. Majority of local grassroot XC races have to take place inside the confines of a part or private property and the end results are loops that are limited in elevation.

if you choose to do long climbs - that is fantastic. Devils Backbone Mountain Cross was a race I used to do in Virginia that had stupid climbs and relatively fun descents. BUT - I have also done that race on a cyclocross bike.

Leadville 100 is another race that an XC bike is perfect for - however that is an extreme endurance course. Far from the norm.
 
Maybe we got our wires crossed here: I was specifically not talking about races, but just what people are doing for fun on the weekends. I have never raced in any context on two wheels, so I don't doubt your characterization is apt in that context. For amateur sports, though, in my experience, mountain biking was for the most part about going uphill — earning your descent if you wish. When I was living in Munich my friends and I usually did between 1600-2300 m of elevation change in 60-85 km within a relaxed day's worth of riding. That meant we did two or three big climbs, depending on the terrain. If we did less than 1400 hm, we considered it an easy tour back then. You didn't really need a lot of handling skills to get up or down any of the bits.

Of course, what you ride depends very much on what is available locally. In Toronto, that was mostly trails and evading car doors during my commute. And near Sendai, I have found very little routes that qualify as a proper mountain biking, so it is mostly "adventure riding" on bad roads that eventually lead to a single MTB-worthy climb in the forest. Hence, I'll probably get a gravel or a cross bike next.
 
I quite like trainers I only have a dumb trainer that makes a bunch of noise, but when I used to use it I thought it was quite effective in terms of training and well, you can stay in the summer kit and that's good when it's -4 out.

But, unless it's snowing I really am not interested in it. It is so nice out this time of year in the mornings. Sunrise is late so riding at around 6 you get to watch the sunrise, add to that that there are very few people outdoors early it's really quite nice.
Who cares about the cold. Just put some clothes on and away you go.
 
I quite like trainers I only have a dumb trainer that makes a bunch of noise, but when I used to use it I thought it was quite effective in terms of training and well, you can stay in the summer kit and that's good when it's -4 out.

But, unless it's snowing I really am not interested in it. It is so nice out this time of year in the mornings. Sunrise is late so riding at around 6 you get to watch the sunrise, add to that that there are very few people outdoors early it's really quite nice.
Who cares about the cold. Just put some clothes on and away you go.

That really is it, isn't it.

Well, not making excuses but you do have the luxury of being in range of the arakawa - even super early, (way worse anything after that) it's a dicey 15 - 20K through crowded, narrow and choppy Chiba streets to finally get off the road and on a path of sorts. But it's neither here nor there. You're right just get out there don't be a puss lol
 
About the MTB stuff, thanks a lot guys you really have cleared up a lot.

For the record I have no intention of ever entering a sanctioned racing event of any sort, doesnt fit with my personality perhaps, don't know.

So, among other things, now I want to know this: Of what you've seen as far as terrain accessable in Japan, would you choose a MTB or cross/gravel to do the long / big climbs type riding? That's factoring in the fun factor and advantages disadvatages in utility the different types offer etc etc

What are the exact advantages of a MTB ver a gravel bike in various situations? THat said I'm not thinking strictly in terms of utility - what's more fun, even if it s maybe not the superior bike, etc

I'm also getting the impression there are different types of MTB's to think about as well - right now Im thinking basically shocks or no shocks forgive me if this is too simplistic but I hope we can just leave it there for now.
 
I think it all depends on where you live. Getting the right bike for the local trails can make a huge difference.
I have a park bike. It is 160mm of travel front and rear - it is the wrong bike for where I live. It pedals poorly and just has a shitty low speed demeanor. BUT it is a killer bike for downhill and jumps. So it has its place in my collection - but it is a niche bike.

For the Zushi area, I prefer to ride everything on a hardtail. My preference is 120mm fork with 29" tires.
I have also ridden most everything in the area with a single speed hardtail with a 100mm fork and 29" tires.
The ideal amount of suspension is just enough. Excess kills energy and can make the experience of feeling the trail vague.
If you are in the Zushi area and ever want to ride a few different styles, I welcome you to try out a couple of mine.
My frames are all size L, so you need to be at least 177cm to ride them. That most likely would be with the dropper down.
The reach would be a little long, but you will get the point. I am 188cm for reference.

There are tons of options and it can get confusing, but if you need any explanations or opinions, I can help out.
 
That really depends on your locale: so far I have lived in three cities, Nagoya, Fukuoka and Sendai, but biked only in the latter two. Near those two, terrain that would be interesting to ride with a mountain bike and is reachable by bike is scarce. Other paths in the mountain are not really maintained, and you have to deal with tree branches and all that growing into the path, or they just stop all of a sudden. That calculation changes when you have your own car or you happen to live in a region with lots and lots of trails.

But just by judging what the bike shops sell, mountain biking isn't nearly as popular as road biking.

Mountain Bike pros:
+ You have a wider range of gears (500-530 % for most 1x and 2x setups compared to 320-420 % on a drop bar bike), especially at the low end. If you can't climb something in the lowest gear on a mountain bike, you will be faster walking.
+ Robust. With a mountain bike, you don't have to worry about curbs, potholes and all that. It'll soak it up.
+ Riding won't be spooling off kilometer after kilometer, you sometimes have to work with your bike to conquer the terrain.
+ Even on a hard tail (i. e. a mountain bike that only has front suspension), going downhill off road you will murder any cross bike.

Mountain Bike cons:
- It'll be heavier. Unless you buy boutique parts, a decent hard tail will weigh in at about 11.5-12.5 kg. Fullys (with suspension in the rear) will weigh about 13.0-13.5 kg.
- You will be slower on the flats and on road due to increased tire drag, worse aerodynamics (due to body position) and you lack gearing at the top.
- You will have to maintain the shocks and the suspension fork. It is not difficult, but fully rigid bikes are just simpler.


Cross/gravel bike pros:
+ They can be your do-it-all bike, especially if you are willing to change tires and gears. You could conceivably have a bike with which you can keep up with friends on road bikes on one weekend and ride in the forest the next.
+ It'll lighter. Depending on frame material and purpose, a cross/gravel bike weighs 8-10.5 kg.
+ Terrain that is trivial for a mountain bike can become interesting on a cross/gravel bike — especially downhill.
+ They are a great compromise if you spend 70+ % on the road and only the remainder on simple terrain.

Cross/gravel bike cons:
- No suspension, which means you are less capable off road. (I know there are a few exceptions here like the Cannondale Slate or the Grit Lauf fork, but almost all of them but a select few are fully rigid bikes.)
- Comparatively narrow drop bars are less suited to difficult terrain. Ditto for the geometry of some of the bikes, the head angle is much steeper, which makes the bikes twitchier.
- Less stopping power with the brakes & tire combos.


Personally, I will go for a cross bike next: that makes the simple trails I can reach much more interesting and I'll get there faster. Plus, most of the gradients here near Sendai are comparatively low, I can manage almost all of them in my second chain ring (I have a 3x10 setup). And I hope that the gradients I do ride will become more of a challenge. Of course, that is just me. Nevertheless, I feel like I would still be happier in the forest on a mountain bike. :)

If you have never owned a mountain bike, I recommend that you look into getting a hard tail. That will teach you some basic handling skills, is cheaper than a fully (or, at the same price point, you can get a better bike), and because it is lighter, you will be faster uphill (which is one of the primary purposes for you). If you need help picking a particular bike, feel free to ask us here. To get a decent hard tail with aluminum frame, expect to spend 1,500 $/€, in ¥ it'll be more as bikes tend to be more expensive here.
 
@bloaker @OreoCookie ok that's great understand way more - surprised at the weight actually, didn't know MTBs were so heavy actually.

A lot to digest, hope most of it has gone in.

Thanks for the kind offer to test, u fortunately way far away from the Zushi area and also just a short guy. Well if you go by the numbers maybe slightly above average for Japan but I find I'm looking up at a lot of girls and women form overseas.

So, shaping up like hardtail MTB or gravel. Leaning toward the MTB just because it's more different - have car can travel to the spots if need be. Main riding will still be on road. Right now looking at the MTB exploration as a type of training.

Also, it's weitd I keep saying training blah blah blah and also that I'll never compete with other humans - a bit contradictory? My main competition is myself I guess, to sum that up.
 
When looking at a bike - fit is important, but it isn't as "perfect" as a road bike.
Components... Shimano is fairly easy to understand... Top to middle... XTR, XT, SLX, Deore -> Anything below this you don't really want.
Pretty much all 10sp Mountain Shimano parts are compatible.
Pretty much all 11sp Mountain Shimano parts are compatible.

If you buy 9 or less... your options to ever upgrade become diminished. That is not an awful thing, but i like to keep my bikes for a while so replacement parts are needed at some point. When I replace, I typically upgrade.

SRAM - this is a bit more confusing. X5, X7, X9 are dead... kinda
The new hierarchy is confusing. Depending on how much you spend... NX is intro level. GX is budget good stuff. Once you get into parts that start with an "X" it is nice... X0, X1, X01, XX, & XX1. If it says "Eagle" it is 12 speed.

My issue with SRAM - Price.
Shimano XT Cassette - $70
Sram X01 Cassette - $250
If you happen to buy SRAM and get an XD Drive to run SRAMs cassettes with a 10T ring, you may also have to buy a new driver or rear hub if you ever realize you don't want to drop all that money into a cassette.
--------------------------------------------

Regarding @OreoCookie's offer to ask questions here - that is a good option. Varying opinions, while confusing at times - only give you a bit more insight into how different people view different tools for the job. The biggest advantage is you have the opportunity to see what aligns more with what you think is important.
 
ok that's great understand way more - surprised at the weight actually, didn't know MTBs were so heavy actually.
If you are ok being slower than road bikes on the road, a hard tail can really be your do-it-all bike. Weight-wise, it is not that bad, especially off road. If you are willing to shell out money, you can get sub-10 kg mountain bikes, but these tend to be very pricey.

As far as components go, I think bloaker's pointers are quite good. The only two things I would add are that SRAM's GX Eagle is actually worth looking at: it is the only affordable 1x12 solution out there, meaning you have one chain ring in the front and 12 cogs in the back with a 500 % gear range. Note that with mountain bikes finding your perfect cadence is less important, because the terrain will vary a lot and there are other considerations other than cadence which enter in your choice of gear.

The other thing is that all serious mountain bikes use hydraulic disc brakes. These come in different grades as well, and having a good disk brake makes a big difference. For the most part, you will be able to break with one finger, that is how they are designed. And they are self adjusting, meaning that as the brake pads wear, the brakes will adjust the spacing to the rotor automatically. Shimano SLX brakes and better are really, really good. I have XT brakes on mine and it is hard to find any fault with them.

Just like with any bike, you would ideally want to test ride bikes, but at least in my experience Japanese shops don't allow you to do that. On the other hand, you also seem to be lucky, because if you are closer to average Japanese height, you have much more choice in the shops. But try anyway, frames are like shoes and clothes, different shapes fit different people. Many brands don't import all sizes. E. g. in Japan Ridley only offers their gravel bikes in the frame sizes S and XS.
 
Ok well will probably stick with Shinano for a first bike at least, also didn't realize SRAM was so pricey. Also didn't know they had 1 X 12 now.

Yes I accept now that test rides are out of the question, it's alright though. Whatever .

Do you giys need to use garmins and if so what are the main metrics for you? Well like cadence was mentioned earlier for road; personally I don't look at it - I look at power, heart rate and grade / elevation sometimes but mostly the main two and time of day, temp, the map.

Do you need power? I get the impression I wouldn't be too concerned with that as I'd need to be more focused on what the terrain was doing or what o was doing with the bike.

Also, is it something people do alone a lot? (I like to ride alone sometimes, seems like)

Also been eyeing that new bike from 3T, know which one I mean? Am curious to hear what you guys think about it.

About sizes yeah it would be easier to pick something up most likely but the guy at my shop is good with ordering stuff - haven't had much trouble getting what I needed (sixes brands etc) so far.

Oh and about dropper posts - not sure what they are - is it what it sounds like, a post that adjusts (height) quickly / easily? Or at least more so than a regular post? I could of course ask the internet myself for this but been to lazy to do it thus far, don't think I'll ever do it.
 
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